Questions about the Ogham tree list

topic posted Fri, April 18, 2008 - 3:00 AM by  Muddymagus
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I would like to find answers to the following questions, which I think might occur to anyone trying to take an intelligent interest in the Ogham and its associated trees:

1. What is the earliest traceable reference to an association between specific types of tree (Birch, Rowan, Alder or whatever) and the characters of the Ogham (right of stem, left of stem, athwart stem etc.)?

2. What is the earliest known actual list of these associated trees?
Such a list does not appear in the core or 'canonical' element in The Scholars' Primer, as identified by Anders Ahlqvist (see the thread 'The Scholars' Primer and the Ogham'). The list would therefore seem to form part of the later commentaries on the Primer. So when was it introduced and by whom?

3. How did the Ogham tree list as we know it today evolve, and why does it include trees that are not indigenous to Ireland, where the Ogham and the tree list are assumed to have originated?
Silver Fir (Abies alba) is native to central Europe.
The Vine is native to Asia Minor (although of course cultivated everywhere where the climate allows).
The White Poplar (Populus alba) is indigenous to central and southern Europe and parts of Asia; it is POSSIBLY indigenous to parts of the British Isles.

4. Are Calder's translations of the words in the tree lists in the Scholars' Primer accurate in the light of more recent scholarship?

If anyone knows of any sources of information on these or any related points, I'd be most grateful to hear from them.
posted by:
Muddymagus
United Kingdom
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  • Re: Questions about the Ogham tree list

    Fri, April 18, 2008 - 12:16 PM
    Dealing with questions 1 & 2 first, the earliest trace is in fact the Auraicept, and probably a hypothetical version of the Ogham tract. The text and commentary is actually a little misleading in the Auraicept. Most likely there are some places where the commentary has superceded original text - most obviously regarding the 'seven things by which Gaelic is measured'. I am sure you noticed that the Ahlqvist's text explains 'etargaire' - distinction - and 'insce' which I believe he translates as 'gender', but few of the others. The four qualities of letters are explained in the early text, but accent, syllable, series (doesn't Ahlqvist use 'declension' there?) and juncture (forbaid, deach, reim and alt) are just mentioned and not explained. Every version of the Auraicept explains these terms in exhaustive detail, so probably what we are looking at is a changing interpretation of these words as the language changes. This means that there could have been much more in the seventh century Auraicept than is there now, and the Auraicept as it stood in the twelfth century certainly marks the Ogham letters as the trees.

    Elsewhere Ogham marked as the tree-alphabet in various scélta and texts (like the Ogham and Bardic tracts), well before the 13th century, so I think the beithe-luis-nion is at least as old as the early seventh century. For that matter, I see no reason why it would not pre-date that time either, and at that pont you have to start finding reasons why the Ogham enscriptions - since they agree with much of the Ogham in later manuscripts - would not have shared the letter-names of later tradition. So when we look at the Book of Ballymote, I think it is safe to consider it a stunning show of virtuosity on the part of its compiler, but still maintaining a core tradition that goes back at least to the early seventh century, and quite possibly as early as Ogham can be found.

    Your third question is an interesting one that I don't think has recieved enough attention. Were you able to find 'Íldánach Íldireach' or 'Sages Saints and Storytellers'? There are two things to consider: 1) a number of trees are now extinct in Ireland as a result of Early Modern foresting and 2) many words for trees, particularly ones with such strong traditional meaning as found in Ogham, are of uncertain meaning and get assigned meanings according to later tradition. There needs to be quite a bit more work done on this lexical side ofthe Ogham.
    • Re: Questions about the Ogham tree list

      Fri, April 18, 2008 - 4:29 PM
      Thank you. I have 'Íldánach Íldireach' and 'Sages Saints and Storytellers' on order at the library, and Damian McManus' 'Guide to Ogam' (Maynooth Monographs No.4 1991) has also been recommended.

      And yes, Ahlqvist uses 'declension' rather than 'series' (not that the distinction means very much to me!) :-)
      • Re: Questions about the Ogham tree list

        Sat, April 19, 2008 - 7:58 AM
        The translation of the 'seachta' (seven things) is very difficult becuase they are used in different ways in different contexts - the most basic being poetic and prose contexts. 'Reim' generally means 'series' and denotes a series of things connected by a common relationship (think twelve eggs in a cardboard dozen container). At the end of almost every instance of the Auraicept in manuscript there are a series of extended declensions: lists of nouns in different syntactic forms. Here's a short example (.

        fer: a man (nominative singular)
        fer: a man (accusative singular - as in 'I struck the man')
        fir: a man's (genetive singular - as in 'a man's head': cenn fir)
        fiur: to a man (dative singular - as in 'I gave the sword to a man')

        and so on ...

        This is a reim and the lists go on for ages in the manuscripts to include prepositional phrases (do fhiur, i [bh]fheraibh, etc.). What is more, the Auraicept speaks of prose reim as a word's specific form such that if I said just "fiur", that word's prose reim would be said to be the dative case. The idea is that each word takes part in the notional series of its various forms: 'fiur' implying the three other forms of the Old Irish word 'man' that precede it in the above list.

        Nevertheless, this is only one type of reim. Another reim is found in poetry. Poems were divided into sections, each called a 'rann' (literally portion, 'rainn' is its plural). Most rainn consisted of four sections, effectively dividing each rann into 2 lethrainn (half-portion) and 4 ceathrarainn (quarter-portions). Often poems would consist of thirty or more rainn. The point is that each rann is concieved as a series of quarterparts and each poem is concieved as a series of rainn. Both are types of reim.

        Ok, this is going on too long, but hopefully that clarifies the issue of translating these very involved terms.

        • Re: Questions about the Ogham tree list

          Tue, May 13, 2008 - 6:17 AM
          I now have ‘The Old Irish Tree List’, an essay by Fergus Kelly. (Kelly, Fergus. 1976. The Old Irish Tree List. Celtica 11, 107-124).

          The tree list in question is from the 8th century CE ‘Bretha Comaithchesa’, meaning ‘The Laws of the Neighbourhood’, a legal tract probably dating from the previous century.

          It divides 28 trees into four classes according to their economic importance, adjudged on the basis of the value of their timber, the size they normally attain, and/or their value (if any) as a source of food or animal feed. The text also gives details of the scale of penalties, in the form of confiscation of livestock, payable by anyone guilty of unlawfully felling trees, cutting branches off them, or otherwise misappropriating them. An injured tree was, moreover, to be salved by the culprit with a mixture of ‘smooth clay, cow-dung and new milk’.

          The four classes and their members are as follows:

          Seven airig fedo, or nobles of the wood:
          Oak (because of “its acorns and its dignity”).
          Hazel (because of “its nuts and its rods”).
          Holly (because of “grass for another” (meaning possibly a grass substitute, the upper branches being used for winter fodder) and “chariot shafts”).
          Yew (because of “its noble artefacts”).
          Ash (because of its “support of a royal thigh” (used for the King’s seat?) and “half material of a weapon” i.e. its use for spear shafts).
          Scots Pine (because of “its resin in a bowl”), although there is some doubt about the exact translation of the Irish word.
          The Wild Apple Tree (because of “its fruit and its bark”, although what the bark was useful for does not seem to be known).

          Seven aithig fedo, or commoners of the wood:
          Alder
          Willow
          Hawthorn
          Rowan
          Birch
          Elm
          Wild Cherry

          Seven fodla fedo, or ‘lower divisions’ of the wood:
          Blackthorn
          Elder
          Spindle Tree
          Whitebeam
          Arbutus or Strawberry Tree
          Aspen
          Juniper (although there is again some doubt about the correct translation of the word).

          Seven losa fedo, or bushes of the wood:
          Bracken
          Bog-myrtle
          Gorse/Furze
          Bramble or Blackberry
          Heather
          Broom (although the Irish word used is also glossed as Reed).
          Wild Rose, or possibly Gooseberry.

          Variant readings also give for the losa fedo: Ivy and Rushes.

          Thus all the trees of the Ogham are also mentioned in the Tree List, with the exception of the Vine. (It should be noted however that Silver Fir, and White Poplar, which occur in later versions of the Ogham list, are not mentioned either in the Scholars’ Primer (in Calder‘s translation), which is our primary source for the Ogham trees, or in the Tree List. Aspen alone appears for both Edhadh/Edad and for Ebhadh/Ebad (although Test Tree is mentioned in the Primer as an alternative for Edad, and Elecampane for Ebad); and the conifer in the Ogham is referred to simply as Fir or Pine).

          However, the same word is not always used in the Ogham list and the Tree List, as follows:

          TREE: OGHAM LIST: TREE LIST
          Birch: Beithe/Bethe: Beithe
          Rowan: Luis: Caerthann
          Alder: Fern(n): Fern
          Willow: Sail: Sail
          Ash: Nin: Uinnius

          Hawthorn: (H)Uath: Sce
          Oak: Duir: Daur
          Holly: Tinne: Cuilenn
          Hazel: Coll: Coll
          Apple: Que(i)rt: Aball

          Vine: Muin:
          Ivy: Gort: Eiden(n)
          Broom: (N)Getal: Gilcach
          Blackthorn: Straiph/Straif: Draigen
          Elder: Ruis: Trom

          Pine/Fir: Ailm: Ochtach
          Gorse: Onn: Aiten
          Heather: Ur: Froech
          Aspen: Edad/Edhadh: Crithach
          Yew: Ido/Idad: Ibar

          Aspen: Ebad/Ebhadh: Crithach
          Spindle: Oir: Feorus
          Honeysuckle: Uilleann/Uilleand: Feithlenn/Eidle(a)nn etc.
          Gooseberry: Ifin/Iphin/Pin: Spin (?)
          Witch Hazel: Emancoll:
          (=Wych Elm?)

          Kelly mentions the word Ailm found in the Ogham, in connection with his discussion of the word Ochtach in the Tree List, which he translates as Scots Pine. He says of Ailm: “It seems to have been a learned word, and its only occurrence outside glossaries and grammars isn the K & H [King and Hermit] dialogue [of the ninth century CE]” where the Hermit says “Caine ailmi ardom-peitet”: “Beautiful are the pines which make music for me”.

          Kelly also mentions a word Aiteal which “is the word most frequently given for Juniper” in English-Irish dictionaries. It at least has the same initial letters as Ailm, and the Juniper is one of the three conifers native to the British Isles and Ireland (the other two being Scots Pine and Yew). He suspects however that the word was imported in the 19th century from Scottish Gaelic.

          I can only assume, on present information, that the other tree words in the Ogham that are dissimilar to the tree words in the Tree List are also ‘learned’ words of unknown origin. The Tree List words would mostly seem to be ancestral to the corresponding words in Modern Irish, but the same cannot be said for the Ogham words which differ from them. Perhaps, then, they were part of a special vocabulary used by the Irish Druids. But why some and not others?
          • Re: Questions about the Ogham tree list

            Tue, May 13, 2008 - 6:20 AM
            I omitted to mention that the Witch Hazel or Wych Elm (Emancoll) does also not occur in the Tree List.
            • Re: Questions about the Ogham tree list

              Tue, May 13, 2008 - 10:41 AM
              Again, the difficulty is that Calder's text is never found alone but in later versions of the Auraicept so that there is always the chance that the earlier text mentions these in another form, or that earlier material has been linguistically updated (rendering it outside of Ahlqvist's focus). There's a passage I would like to comment on from the Auaraicept on this, but I don't have the book with me in the office today (focusing on arithmetic texts). I'll try to get to it tonight. Thursday at the latest.
              • Re: Questions about the Ogham tree list

                Wed, May 14, 2008 - 4:37 AM
                I look forward to that Morchú.

                I've done a bit more research using the very limited resources available to me in the public library, and have come up with the following:

                Of the 25 ‘woods’ in the Ogham, five have names that correspond to Modern Irish names, viz.

                Beithe/Bethe (Birch) (Beith in Modern Irish)
                Fern(n) (Alder) (MI Fearnog)
                Sail (Willow) (MI Saileach)
                Duir (Oak) (MI Dair)
                Coll (Hazel) (MI Coll)

                Of the remaining Ogham names, the following 12 are to be found in Edward Dwelly’s ‘The Illustrated Gaelic-English Dictionary’ (Gairm Publications, Glasgow 1977) as the names of the corresponding trees (although NOT as the standard Modern Gaelic names):
                Luis (Rowan) (Modern Irish Crann, Caorthann, Caorthainn)
                Huath (Hawthorn) (MI Seach gheal, Crann sceiche)
                Muin (Vine) (MI Finniuin, Finiuin)
                Gort (Ivy) MI Eidhnean)
                Straiph/Straif (Blackthorn) (MI Draighean dubh)
                Ruis (Elder) (MI Trom)
                Ailm (Pine/Fir) (MI Peine, Giuis)
                Onn (Gorse) (MI Aiteann)
                Ur (Heather) (MI Fraoch)
                Oir (Spindle) (MI Fearsaid)
                Uilleann/Uileand (Honeysuckle) (MI Feithleann)
                Ifin/Pin/Iphin (Gooseberry) (MI Spionan)

                This leaves the following 8 unaccounted for (i.e. they are not confirmed by the dictionaries available to me as tree names, either ancient or modern):
                Nin (Ash) (Modern Irish Fuinseog)
                Tinne (Holly) (MI Cuileann)
                Que(i)rt (Crab Apple) (MI Fia-ull)
                (N)Getal (Broom) (MI Giolcach)
                Edad/Edhadh (Aspen) (MI?)
                Idad/Ido (Yew) (MI Iur)
                Ebad/Edhadh (Poplar?) (MI Poibleog)
                Emancoll (Wych Elm?) (MI?)

                I understand that it is Damian McManus’ contention that not all the Ogham names were originally names of trees at all, and I await impatiently for the public library to produce copies of his work.
                • Re: Questions about the Ogham tree list

                  Sat, May 17, 2008 - 8:58 AM
                  I’ve now got access to Damian McManus’ ‘A Guide to Ogam’ (Maynooth Monographs 4; An Sagart, Maynooth 1997), and also a copy of Howard Meroney’s 1949 article ‘Early Irish Letter Names’ (Speculum 1949 Vol.24/1 pp19-43).

                  McManus’ book seems to me to be a very comprehensive exposition of the scholarship on all aspects of the Ogham to the date of publication. It would appear to be both scarce and sought-after, commanding rather silly prices on the net, and causing the library to allow me at it on a ‘reference only’ basis.

                  Both these writers consider that not all the names for the letters represented by the Ogham characters were originally tree names. The idea that they are is described by Meroney as a “strangely erroneous opinion” that “has prevailed for hundreds of years“. In fact only BEITHE, FERN, SAIL, DAUR and COLL are certainly the names of trees. Meroney quotes an earlier scholar Charles (NOT Robert!) Graves as saying that “it can be shown with almost certainty of proof” that NIN, (H)UATH, TINNE, MUIN, GORT, STRAIF, UR, OIR, UILLEN and EMANCOLL are NOT the Irish names of trees or plants. The only attestations to their being tree names are to be found in the early grammatical treatises and glossaries…no supporting evidence is to be found in non-grammatical writings.

                  According to McManus, in the Old Irish period the names for the letters (which he considers to be coeval with the creation of the Ogham) were still - for the most part - familiar words, and formed the basis for the Briatharogam, or Word Ogham, three series of ‘kennings’ known as Morrainn mic Moin’s, Maic ind Oc’s, and Con Culainn’s Word Oghams. These kennings preserve the original meanings of the words. However, as some of the letter names became increasingly obsolete and misunderstood, the desire to schematise the Ogham, together with the fact that largest category of names are the names of trees, and the fact that the Irish word ‘fid’ means both ‘letter’ and ‘tree’, led to the evolution of the ‘fiction’ that the Ogham was fundamentally a tree-alphabet.

                  According to Meroney, Calder in his version of the Auraicept gives a misleadingly simplified view, omitting for instance the fact that PIN has rowan, pine and gooseberry attached to it, and CEIRT/QUEIRT has apple-tree, holly, quicken and aspen. “Taken separately indeed,” he says, “the glosses render seventeen of the twenty-five names with a diversity which no woodsman could reconcile and no grammarian should trust.”

                  These are the meanings of the letter names according to these writers:

                  BEITHI: ‘birch’
                  LUIS: either from luise/loise meaning ‘flame’, or ’lus’ meaning ’plant, herb’.
                  FERN: ’alder’ or ’shield’. McManus supposes a primitive Irish form ‘werna’: hence the value w (= v) in the early inscriptions.
                  SAIL: ’willow’.
                  NIN: ’fork’ (the upright fork supporting one end of the weaver’s beam) or ’loft’.

                  (h)UATH: from ’uath’: ’fear, horror’. The Ogham sign itself, says Meroney, “suggested the alternative name sce ’thorn’ (not ’thorn-tree’).” For McManus, the addition of H was “no more than a cosmetic solution to the problem created by the loss of the original initial consonant…lost before the period of the inscriptions”.
                  DUIR: ’oak’.
                  TINNE: from ’tindi’: ’bar/rod of metal, axle, ingot, mass of molten metal’, “probably related to Old Irish ’tend’ meaning ’strong’ or ’tind’ meaning ’brilliant’".
                  COLL: ’hazel’.
                  QUEIRT/CE(I)RT: Said to be related to Welsh ’perth’ meaning ‘bush’, and cognate with Latin ’quercus’ meaning ’oak’. “By the Old Irish period, however” (says McManus) “it was confused with the word ceirt, ’rag’”. Meroney also gives ’rag’.

                  MUIN: Several meanings: ’love or esteem; upper part of the back or neck; a wile, ruse, or trick’.
                  GORT: ’field’.
                  (n)GETAL: ’i.e. ’cetal’ meaning ’charm’ says Meroney; McManus says: ’killing, slaying’…an old verbal noun of ’gonid’ meaning ’wounds, slays’.
                  STRAIPH: ‘sulphur’.
                  RUIS: ‘redness’; “in particular the redness in the face brought on by embarrassment”.

                  AILM: Meroney says that the kennings point to its position in the Ogham, and McManus that they relate to the sound of the letter, rather than to its meaning. The word is attested only once in the literature as meaning ‘pine-tree’.
                  ONN: ‘wheel’; or Old Irish ‘onn’ meaning ‘ash-tree’.
                  UR: ‘humus, soil, earth, clay’.
                  EDAD and IDAD: described as “an artificial pairing”, neither being attested as a word in its own right. May relate to words for ‘salmon’ or ‘yew’. The same applies to EBAD.

                  EMANCOLL: ‘double C’. (Hence also ‘double hazel’, for which Calder puts ‘Witch Hazel’, probably meaning ‘Wych Elm’).
                  UILEN/UILLEND: ‘elbow’?
                  PIN/IPHIN: from Latin ‘pinus’ meaning ‘pine’.
                  OIR: from Latin ‘aurum’ meaning ‘gold’.

                  Says Meroney: “If the foregoing identifications are accepted, many theories about the oghamic alphabet will fall by their own weight. Arguments based, for example, on the tree-lore of antiquity…now seem but remotely pertinent.” McManus says that the nature of the Ogham “is such that it is impossible to pinpoint its source of inspiration or to identify its framers in time or space with any degree of accuracy”. The Irish learned class of filid seem the most likely candidates, “and the grammar school would account for many of its features”. As to a precursor for the script itself, he says that the “only theory…which commands general approval today is that which associates it with the row numerals of the tally stick.” What it became, at the time of the monuments, was “the Irish equivalent of Roman monumental script”. As the centuries went by, the Ogham fell into disuse, but the letter names were kept for educational purposes in the teaching of Irish.

                  The idea that the Ogham had its roots in an exclusively pagan culture is criticized by McManus on the basis that the ‘cult’ of the early monuments “falls within the Christian period”. The assertion that the monuments were interfered with by defacement, alteration, or the addition of crosses to Christianize them is based on a presupposition that they were created by pagans, rather than constituting proof that they were so created. The damage is, in the majority of cases, most probably the result of ‘secondary appropriations’, weathering, and accident. The very limited nature of the inscriptions means that the absence of specifically Christian sentiments proves nothing; and although the language used has conservative elements (naturally associated with written rather than spoken language), it is not of an archaic or essentially pre/non-Christian nature.

                  So, according to these writers, what was once a series of letter names, only some of which were the names of trees, evolved into the ‘tree alphabet’ that we have today. That the Ogham tree list had a basis in historical druidry would on this basis seem unlikely. Nonetheless, so far as I’m concerned, it can still be described as druidic to the extent that druidry - in the version that I espouse - has at its core the tree/human interface.

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